The #1 Key to Breakthrough Online Growth – with Rich Schefren

Check out episode
  • Discover how to get that awesome online marketing breakthrough through the power of observing and adapting
  • Learn what platform suits you and your business that will keep your clients hooked and splurge on your products
  • Find out how to effectively and organically increase your online sales by letting your clients feel cared for


  • Wanting to Find Out How to Up Your Online Marketing Game and Keep Your Products Booming and On the Trend? Learn how you can organically and effectively be everyone’s go-to business online:


Have you been struggling with the fast-pacing changes brought by the online world that it makes online marketing just so hard?

Do you want to know the nits and grits of online marketing so that you can maximize your business and product’s potential?

Are you ready to breakthrough online growth with the right marketing strategy that will last you a lifetime and organically attract high-paying clients?

Rich Schefren is widely recognized as an Internet marketing pioneer and one of the world’s top experts on online business strategy. He has coached the world’s top online business gurus, increased client revenues by BILLIONS of dollars, and grew 3 of his businesses to 7-figures a year. Agora publishing a billion-dollar testimonial.

In this episode, Rich talks about the different online marketing tactics and strategies that you can apply to your business that can organically get you traction and clients. He also shares the importance of being aware of anything online— from trends to hashtags and whatnot, which you can adapt and help you market online.

Check out these episode highlights:

  • 02:21 – Rich’s ideal client: “Anyone that uses online marketing to either make money, grow a business, etc., is ultimately a client of ours or a potential client of ours based on some of the products that we recently released, like in the last few years, really, it’s so wide open.”
  • 03:18 – Problem Rich helps solve: “Well, I would say that, you know, if they are not satisfied with the performance of their marketing, at the end of the day, like, that’s the problem I would solve. So, that’s the starting point, really.”
  • 23:58 – Rich’s Valuable Free Action (VFA): “I would say that they should pay more close attention to the people that they buy from, the places that they shop from, and notice anything that is new to them when they first noticed that. Like, you know, all of these things are hidden in plain sight, you know.”
  • 29:05 – Rich’s Valuable Free Resource (VFR): Check out Rich’s Website:
  • 32:15 – Q: You wouldn’t know to ask me this question, but since I’m asking myself the question and delivering the answer, let me tell you. A: I want to share what I did to watch my coaching. It’s something I’ve taught to numerous people and the people who have done it have done very well and done the same.

Tweetable Takeaways from this Episode:

“The one competitive advantage that cannot be copied is timing.” -Rich Schefren Click To Tweet

(Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)

Tom Poland 00:10
Welcome everyone to another edition of Marketing The Invisible. My name is Tom Poland, beaming out to you there from little Castaways Beach from Queensland, Australia, joined today by Rich Schefren.
Rich, good day, Sir. Very warm welcome. Where are you hanging out?

Rich Schefren 0:23
I am in Delray Beach, Florida.

Tom Poland 0:26
Sounds like a nice spot to be.
For those of you who don’t know Rich, you must have been living in a cave, because he is one of the founding fathers of online marketing. He’s literally one of the world’s top experts on online business strategy. He’s coached a Rolodex of who’s who in the world of internet marketing. Most of the internet, the people that I respect and I hold in high esteem based on their integrity in the results in the internet marketing world have been mentored by Rich. He’s come out of retirement. He’s got- If I read his whole bio, it’s kind of, it would rival war and peaceful credentials and lengths, he said. For example, just plucking one thing out of the air, he’s got a testimony from Agora about how he helped them get to $1 billion of extra revenue. I mean, you can’t live on a billion dollars, right, Rich? But it’s a good start, yeah?

Rich Schefren 01:19
Yes, a good start. I wish I would have negotiated a piece of that, but unfortunately, not.

Tom Poland 1:25
I want to add, as well, that Rich is just an extraordinarily generous person. I remember getting something from you for free and it was about strategic alliances. It was a giveaway, but it was something that had been previously sold for a lot of money, and rightly so because it was chock full of value. And everyone I speak to, the usually inestimable Bob Bly, who introduced us Rich, speaks so highly of not only your integrity but your generosity. So, delighted to have you on the show. I think without further ado, we will announce the title, which is “The #1 Key to Breakthrough Online Growth”, and we’re going to kick off.
Folks, today, I so wanted to have Rich on the show. I’m throwing away our seven-minute timer. We’ll go through the same questions, but we might take a little deviation here and there with his act of smells and gold.
So Rich, let’s kick off with question number one, though. Who’s your ideal client?

Rich Schefren 2:15
Yeah, it’s very wide open these days, which is always generally a bad answer for marketers, right?

Tom Poland 2:20

Rich Schefren 2:21
Anyone that uses online marketing to either make money, grow a business, etc., is ultimately a client of ours or a potential client of ours based on some of the products that we recently released, like in the last few years, really, it’s so wide open. So, you know, the same product that became our flagship is great for agency owners, it’s great for coaches and consultants, as well as people who are trying to scale a business online. So, which will make sense, I think, as we go on.

Tom Poland 2:52
As we go on. So, common denominator – people wanting to get growth online. Would that be fair?

Rich Schefren 2:57

Tom Poland 2:58
So, question number two is what’s the problem you solve? We were talking before the interview. It sounded very much like, if I could paraphrase it, the problem you solve is people feel like they’re a voice in a crowd of screaming people. How would you define the problem you solve? We know it’s about growth, but what is the problem or the potential people are looking for when they become a client to yours?

Rich Schefren 3:18
Well, I would say that, you know, if they are not satisfied with the performance of their marketing, at the end of the day, like, that’s the problem I would solve. So, that’s the starting point, really. That if the marketing is not performing as well as it should or as they hoped or etc., not powering the growth that they want, then that’s what we solve. And the- I don’t know if I should go further with that.

Tom Poland 3:44
Yeah, please. Let’s do. Anything you think about, your own?

Rich Schefren 3:48
Yeah. So, what most people don’t realize is that there are strategies, tactics, channels, etc., that can, at one moment in time, be insanely powerful, but that over time, it degrade.

Tom Poland 4:07

Rich Schefren 4:08
And that’s pretty much consistent with everything, as far as marketing online. And so, the only exception to that can be tremendously great creative, like an amazing copy or something like that, but that’s outside the reach of most people.

Tom Poland 4:23

Rich Schefren 4:24
So, you know, I’ll give you an example. So, when I brought the VSL to Agora, it was back in 2007.

Tom Poland 4:33
Just let me explain to folks. VSL is the Video Sales Letter.

Rich Schefren 4:37
Yeah, Video Sales Letter. It was invented by John Benson. He’s the creator of it. He invented it at the end of 2005. He first did it for a client in 2006. I saw that and brought it to Agora, like soon thereafter, early 2007. When Agora used that, that’s what the testimonial from them, from Bill Bonner and Mark Ford says, when I brought it over to them, immediately, conversion rates went up 400% in the US, 300% in France, 250% in Germany, and all they did was take the sales letters that they had and copy and paste it into a PowerPoint. You know, white background, black text. That’s it.
And just to give a full arc of that story, right? So, John Benson invented it at the end of 2005. The very first course on video sales letters didn’t come out until 2010. And that was the 3X VSL method by John Benson. And the Agora got those benefits in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, right? By 2017, there was absolutely zero difference between a regular sales letter and a VSL the way that Agora had been doing it. So, zero, right? And so, what most people don’t realize is that you’re either there for the beginning or you don’t get the benefit that, like, you could get. And you know, a year later, when I invented automated webinars, like, we had the same thing. Like, the show up rates were 80%. The registration rates were high, like you know, because there wasn’t- it wasn’t the way it is now, right?

Tom Poland 6:18

Rich Schefren 6:18
And so, every marketing, or if you were early on in AdWords or early on in Facebook, like there was a time when it was very easy.

Tom Poland 6:27

Rich Schefren 6:28
The time is over now, right? Like, now, it’s easier to make something work on YouTube than it is on Facebook, and if you don’t know that, you could be pounding your head against the wall to try and make Facebook work.
So, there are these levers, but what’s more important than the lever itself is also the timing. And because not only this performance degrade on any channel, any tactic, any strategy, but the effort that’s involved to get the result increases over time. So, you have one graph, which is results, they’re going down, right? Like, if I can-

Tom Poland 7:01
Yeah, I got it here.

Rich Schefren 7:02
Like going down, right? But then, the effort to get the result is going up. So, you have this like, moment in time right over here where it’s high results, low effort, right? And then it goes down and up, and so now all of a sudden, on this side, it’s high effort, not great results, right?
And if someone looks at their marketing arsenal, their marketing mix, you know, the assets that they’re using, and none of them are anything that is new, like not anything that has been introduced in the last 12 months or 18 months, then probably, everything in their mix is stuff that everybody knows. And if you’re using stuff that everybody knows, there’s not really the advantage to propel you forward. And what I think most people miss these days, is that that’s the primary way of growth online. And so, whether people realize that or not, they should take a step back and look at the businesses that they know that are successful online; I’m not talking about, you know, VC-funded, but entrepreneurial driven, and how they grew and what was their primary way of growth, and generally, it can be reduced down to a channel, a strategy, or a tactic that they got on before the rest of their industry did – the other people, right?
And so, I got known because back in 2006, I wrote a free report. And back when I wrote that free report, you know, my problem was is that I got great results for clients like Ryan Deiss and Russell Brunson and those guys, but nobody wanted business coaching back in 2006 and nobody knew who I was. And so, I wrote a free report, like hoping to get a dozen clients. Just put it on my blog. It’s called the “Internet Business Manifesto”. And then, that ended up going viral. And so, been downloaded millions of times, and totally took me from unknown to known, and built the West, built the business, etc. And for the next year and a half, from, you know, that first report, Internet Business Manifesto I wrote in June of 2006, till 2008, I wrote six more free reports. And that’s how I built my whole business, just like writing free reports, putting them on my blog, and having affiliates mail for it. And that was a very effective strategy in 2006, 2007, 2008.
In 2009, the book “Free”, written by Chris Anderson, the editor of Wired Magazine, was talking about this new concept about giving stuff away for free to sell your product, but by that time, that’s when everybody knows. And there’s no doubt, right? That if someone were to start today, like if they thought they could put a free report on their blog, and that somehow, they’d have millions of dollars, like a month or two later, that’s not going to happen, because the window has already closed.
So, that’s what I’m talking about, as far as this idea that there are asymmetric kind of rewards for stuff that is new online because they grab attention and it’s not clear yet as obvious that I’m trying to sell you something, right? It’s like stealth, camouflage kind of selling.

Tom Poland 10:23
Right. And so, what I’m hearing is that once the thing becomes common place, it becomes- it doesn’t get the cut through that I need to get in order to get noticed. It doesn’t get noticed. It doesn’t get acted on. So, there’s two things. There’s the lever or the platform or the tactic or whatever it is, the VSL or the free report, but it’s also the timing.

Rich Schefren 10:42

Tom Poland 10:43
I almost had to use the analogy, but it sounds a bit like multi-level marketing. If you don’t get in at the top, it’s going to be too late. And, you know, it’s kind of like, when I got to the share market, everyone was in there, and so, yeah. You know, if the taxi driver is telling me about the best stock to buy, it’s probably time to get out.

Rich Schefren 10:58
Right. But the good news is that there’s always something.

Tom Poland 11:00

Rich Schefren 11:01
So, it’s just a question of like, figuring out what it is now? Or, what’s next, right? It shouldn’t be shocking, right? That there might be an opportunity right now on TikTok, right? Like, it should not be shocking to anyone.

Tom Poland 11:16
No. Yeah.

Rich Schefren 11:17
Now, finding out like what it is and what’s working. Like, you either can come to a service like mine, or you can just, you know, keep your ears open and eyes open, rather, and pay attention to anything that gets you to pay. Anything that you notice that’s different and new. And I can give you a ton of different examples of like what’s working now, but yeah. I mean, that’s the gist. Anytime someone sees something and stops and says, “what is that?” There’s something to it.

Tom Poland 11:45
And so, we need to pick up areas. So, we don’t necessarily have to be the innovator, the one person that comes up with one idea at the right time. We might be able to kind of hang on to this shit tiles and go on for the ride, if I’m mixing my metaphors up. Maybe just three or four examples of what you think is hot right now.

Rich Schefren 12:01
Sure. Yeah. So, something that, like, we talked to our group about recently, a couple months ago, was one that is called Interactive Sales Letters. It’s like a video sales letter, but they’re interactive. And this was shared with me by Daniel Levis. He’s a copywriter.

Tom Poland 12:19

Rich Schefren 12:20
And he changed his application funnel for his coaching program from the standard model, which is, you know, ad, opt in, VSL, application, right? Like, that’s the process.
So, there are two different companies that you can do this with. One is VideoAsk. The other is Go Tolstoy, like the writer, Tolstoy, Leo Tolstoy. Both of them are platforms where you can do interactive video. And so, Daniel Levis has it where, you know, you get to this one. The difference is that instead of people going through multi pages, they stay on one page. It’s a seamless experience. And the number of people that he was able to get into his coaching program grew from like about 200 to 300%, like the conversion rates were that much higher, the show up rate was higher, everything was higher, and it makes sense, when I explain why.

Tom Poland 13:13

Rich Schefren 13:14
So, it’s an interactive video, and Daniel does three different questions throughout. And the first question is, are you B2B or B2C? And then, you know, they click a button on it, and then it keeps talking.

Tom Poland 13:28

Rich Schefren 13:29
And the next question is, which niche are you most closely aligned with – health, wealth, or relationships? And they answer, and then it keeps talking. And then the last one is like, are you a small, medium, or large business? And he attaches numbers to those three different, you know, categories.

Tom Poland 13:46

Rich Schefren 13:47
And so, with those three questions, there’s two answers to the first one, three answers to the second, three for the third, so it’s two times three, it’s six, times another three is 18. There’s 18 buckets that someone could fall into.

Tom Poland 14:01

Rich Schefren 14:02
And as soon as they finish that third question, Daniel then goes into a case study about someone very similar to them. Who’s in B2B or B2C like them? Who’s in the same niche as them? Who has a similar business than they had, and that’s now at the next level, right? And then invites them to apply and set up a call, but like, while he’s talking them through it, right on the video, because they never have to leave that video, it’s all seen.

Tom Poland 14:28
Right, it’s clever.

Rich Schefren 14:29
And that has a higher engagement rate right out of the gate, right? Because it’s new and novel.

Tom Poland 14:34

Rich Schefren 14:35
And then, in addition, the message is more catered to them and they’re being kind of pre-sold before they get on, even on the call, right?
And so, that would be an example of something that’s working really well now, but I’ll give you another one that’s in the same field, because this one is very much working like right now and it will be something that, in a year and a half from now, will be a problem.

Tom Poland 14:59

Rich Schefren 15:01
And it’s funny because a friend of mine, Rudy Mawer, who runs a lot of the brands for Tai Lopez, like he sits on top of Pure1 and RadioShack and all the brands that they bought, and he called me because he has a coaching program. And he was like, “I heard that there’s been a change in the way they’re being sold, and I heard that, like, I should talk to you about those.” So, I was like, “Yeah, I’ll send you the thing that we did on the segment.”
And so, this one came from a gentleman by the name of Cole Gordon. Cole is the guy that has set up the phone rooms for a lot of gurus that want to have phone sales but want to keep it totally in house. Like, they don’t trust, and there’s a lot of good reasons not to trust other people because they can damage your reputation so fast, right?

Tom Poland 15:45

Rich Schefren 15:46
So anyway, he’s done it with like Traffic and Funnels, and Aaron Fletcher, and a bunch of bigger companies, too, he’s also worked with before.
And so, I did a call. I did a, you know, a segment with him, and he started that by telling me that outbound is the new inbound. And so, that was the premise of the segment. And what he was talking about was that the standard process, the way I was explaining it, the way Daniel used to do it, right? Opt in page, video, right application. Instead, it’s opt in, but it also has optional phone number, and then as soon as the person – this is just one of seven different funnels that you went over, right? But when they’re watching the video, there’s an outbound call to that person while they’re engaged, right? That’s an extra call that’s being added to the sequence, right? And that extra call is taking a very, like, leadership concierge role. It’s just like, what brought you to the site, seeing if they can give them something right now for free as a gift that like kind of fits where they’re at, and setting up the future call, etc. so there’s already that first touch point. And so, very interesting segment.
And actually, I’ve done a segment with the guys from Traffic and Funnels and Chris Evans. And he was telling me that they had started sending out more content to their list and sending them to the blog, and then people could opt in for content expansion, you know, and that they were making an extra, you know, mid six figures a month, because they were doing that. I was like, “I don’t understand how you’re making an extra six figures just by that.” But it’s because when they’re on the site, getting their content expansion, that’s when all sorts of phone calls are happening out, right?

Tom Poland 17:38

Rich Schefren 17:39
So, I asked the guys from Traffic and Funnels about it, and they said, “Oh, yeah. We switched to outbound and that’s now responsible for about 90% of our sales.”

Tom Poland 17:48

Rich Schefren 17:49
It starts like the first contact starts outbound. So, like, that’s a strategy right now. It’s very effective, right? You can bet, you know, dollars to donuts, right? That as more people start doing that, at some point in time, whether it’s eight months from now, whether it’s a year and a half from now, two years from now, people are not going to appreciate that call.

Tom Poland 18:09

Rich Schefren 18:10
Right now, they do. They feel like this business really cares.

Tom Poland 18:12
It’s novel.

Rich Schefren 18:13
But when they start getting calls from every website they got into, it’s going to be a different story. So, very effective now.

Tom Poland 18:21
Interesting. Okay.

Rich Schefren 18:23
The next one, this one was shared by also two different people kind of overlapping. It’s about discovery ads for YouTube. So, Aleric Heck was talking about how, you know, it’s a great opportunity right now to grow your channel if you have an organic YouTube channel by using discovery ad, and that they’re very inexpensive. And discovery ads, just for people who don’t know, when you’re watching a YouTube video, some of the suggested videos on the right hand side are discovery ads.

Tom Poland 18:57

Rich Schefren 18:58
And then also, if you search by keyword, sometimes, a few of the top ones will also be discovery ad. And generally, you’re advertising your organic content, right? And so, our work just was talking about it as a, like right now, it’s very useful to use, it’s very inexpensive, and it can reduce your overall advertising rates for several reasons.
I, then, also did one with Ian Stanley. And Ian Stanley teaches people. It’s one of the best actual biz ops out there, because I’m generally not a fan of biz op at all because they don’t work. But it needs to just, people have to be email copywriters. And there’s a million businesses out there that don’t manage them as well that you can actually have a career. I mean, you’re not going to get rich but you can make, you know, six figures as an email copywriter relatively easily.
Anyway, so he uses discovery ads as well. And if you have an organic channel on YouTube, you have to link it to your Google account. Until you link it to your Google account, you can’t, you know, you don’t get the benefit of having an organic account because you can retarget anyone that watches your organic videos once your organic YouTube account is linked to your advertising account.

Tom Poland 20:18

Rich Schefren 20:18
You can’t go back. And you can only go to the point where your link those up.
And so, what Ian is doing is he’s spending five bucks a day on Discovery ads to get his videos, and then he- retargeting on YouTube is relatively cheap as well, very cheap, actually. So, once he retargets anyone who watches any of his videos, so the people that come to his videos through discovery ads are the same as people that can do it organically. And on just $5 a day, he is selling high-end coaching to clients through this whole process of moving people through the discovery ad to channel, prevent seeing other ads, and then ultimately being taken off site.
And other ones are a little bit more complicated, but those are examples, I would say, of different strategies that are currently working right now.

Tom Poland 21:14
It’s interesting.

Rich Schefren 21:15
And you know, another thing I can just quite share is that whereas I don’t know of any marketer who has gotten any ads to work from YouTube, or Facebook, or Instagram on TikTok. I know lots of marketers who have ads that work on TikTok, that work on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube. Like, that format works on all channels, right? Which is interesting. They don’t know yet how to apply that, but it’s something to think about.

Tom Poland 21:47
Well, certainly test on TikTok, and if you don’t get it working, go to the other channels, maybe. But yeah, this is interesting. So, the key point, I think, folks, is that there are innovations. You don’t necessarily have to be the innovator, but you have to keep your eyes and ears open and notice what you are noticing, because there might be an opportunity to jump on that particular bandwagon before it rides off the cliff. One day it will.

Rich Schefren 22:09
And what I would say is, is that you don’t need- not every element of your business needs to be this, but you need one. Like, you know, like when I released my free reports, like I was using regular email, a regular blog, like what was the thing at that moment was free content that was valuable, that made a sale.

Tom Poland 22:29

Rich Schefren 22:30
You know. When I did the webinars, like it was the same thing, like everything else was normal, like the standard stuff everyone else was using. So, my point is that you don’t need 100 of these things, but there should be one element in part of your marketing arsenal that is relatively new, that your competitors are not using. And you should spend some time looking for that and recognize. And it could be in any other industry, but it’s not yet been in your industry so your prospects are not like familiar with it. Your competitors aren’t using it.

Tom Poland 23:03
And the process of innovation, it’s necessary that people are going to fail, people are going to trip over, that if you can hang off, if you can notice what is working somewhere, you know, perhaps, you could avoid a lot of those a lot of that downtime and wasted money. But it’s either way. It’s fascinating stuff. And essentially, what you’re saying is that, really, the only competitive advantage of sustainable is innovation. You’ve got to have something that’s timing

Rich Schefren 23:25
The one competitive advantage that cannot be copied is timing.

Tom Poland 23:31
Perfect. Alright. So, terrific stuff. Strategic, but also lots of examples to flesh out those concepts.
Let me give you question five. I’ve skipped a couple because I think we’ve covered them adequately and lots of value has gone out, anyway. What would you say would be one valuable free action? Where could someone go from here to start the process of exploration or innovation or timing? What’s one step in the right direction you’d recommend people take?

Rich Schefren 23:58
I would say that they should pay more close attention to the people that they buy from, the places that they shop from, and notice anything that is new to them when they first noticed that. Like, you know, all of these things are hidden in plain sight, you know. They’re out there. It’s just a question of whether you can spot them or not. And you’re not going to spot all of them, that’s for sure, but you only need to spot one, you know, at any given point.
So, I would say that, you know, recognize that some percentage of your time – and I’m not necessarily saying a lot of it; maybe 5%, maybe 10% – put some amount of your time recognizing that if you look at what your marketing arsenal is right now and you don’t have anything that you would say is cutting edge or something that’s relatively new, then you should spend 5-10% of your time to be on the lookout for those things. Go to different marketers sites. Opt into their stuff. See what they’re doing. See if it’s anything different than what you’re doing, right? Most of the time, it’s not going to be found in a course, because generally, it takes a few years or at least a year or two for something to get out in a course. So generally, you know, there might be a few in a course, but that’s not the amount of time to invest it. Courses are great for what they are. They’re just not great for the latest and greatest, usually.

Tom Poland 25:19
Yep. Yeah.

Rich Schefren 25:20
So, I would say that, and be willing to test, but recognize that, when I speak to most people, if they get honest about it, they’ve never spent any time looking for this. And so, the first thing is to recognize one that there is this kind of time element that is involved with marketing, and that, you know, looking at what the people that you look up to, that you know are doing well, what they’re doing is a start, ideally not in your industry, so that you have the opportunity to be first in your industry, and experiment. You know, at the end of the day, putting your own spin on things.
Like, the reason I wrote a free report was that I was listening to a Dan Kennedy program for coaches and consultants. And at that moment in time, I had my coaching program. Nobody knew me, right? And so, I’m listening, like very eagerly, and I will always remember the question and answer because, like, I can’t believe that I thought this way once, but I did, so, you know. But I had this great coaching program getting people great results, but I felt like I needed new front-end products, new low-priced products to acquire new customers. And then I would need, you know, mid-tier products. Like, I needed this whole built-out business in order to do well. And I didn’t know what to put in these front-end products, these low-priced products, because I had all this great stuff in my coaching program, but I was afraid to take anything from my coaching program because I was afraid I cannibalize my coaching program.

Tom Poland 26:52

Rich Schefren 26:52
So, I’m listening to this Q&A session that is at the end of what Dan presented, and this coach asked the exact question that I was thinking, which is, I have like this coaching program but I don’t know what to put in these lower-priced products to acquire customers because I’m afraid I’ll cannibalize. And Dan just laughed at him. Like literally started, like chuckling, and he said – these are his exact words. He’s like, “Baba? Baba? You don’t get it. You put your best ideas in those products because that’s what’s going to get people to want to join your coaching program.”

Tom Poland 27:24

Rich Schefren 27:25
And I was like, that was news to me, back in like, you know, 2005-ish, or whenever I was listening to it. I was like, that was news to me. And the more I thought about it, I was like, well, if that’s true, then what if I just gave it all the way from like, put not all my good ideas, but what if I gave a bunch of good ideas away for absolutely free?

Tom Poland 27:44

Rich Schefren 27:45
And what if I gave people, gave affiliates, you know, 25% of the coaching, like, just for giving away a free valuable report? And so that’s what I tried, right? Like that. It was just an experiment, but it was based on Dan’s saying, what he said, and based on like, what I know about online marketing, and maybe like, asking affiliates to just give away something highly valuable and we’ll take care of all the selling and do everything from there. Maybe that’s enough. And it was enough. And so, didn’t have to build a lot of front-end products and I didn’t have to do all these things. But it was because like, I was willing to experiment.

Tom Poland 28:20
Yes. And we all want this thing that’s going to stay true and sit and deliver results for ad infinitum, for eternity, but unfortunately, it just doesn’t exist. So, someone’s going to move the cheese, right?

Rich Schefren 28:33
Yeah. I mean, people are always shocked. Like, I wrote a report on automated webinars in early 2008, weighing out how to work, like the whole model. That’s still used today. And people were shocked, like, “why would you do that?” And I’m like, if I thought I could actually do it forever and no one would know about it, I would certainly-

Tom Poland 28:52
Keep it to yourself.

Rich Schefren 28:53
That’s not on the table. Yet anyway, so I credit the guy that invented

Tom Poland 29:00
Right. It’s going to have a “use by” date, so he has to get it out before that expires.

Rich Schefren 29:05

Tom Poland 29:05
So Rich, let’s go to your website. You’re going to set up a special page – What are people going to find when they go there?

Rich Schefren 29:17
Yeah. So, they’re going to find, this was a book that Jay Abraham used at the most recent Anthony Robbins, like super high-end Mastermind. Jay called me because he was giving away one of his books, and none of his books have really the internet component in it and he felt that that was necessary. And so, we took seven of the segments that I’m talking about, like the examples I was giving you, and Jay titled it “Getting Everything You Can Out of All That’s Hot Online” which is like a take-off of his book, getting everything you can from all that you’ve got.

Tom Poland 29:55

Rich Schefren 29:55
And this has strategies in here from Tim Burd, who has Ads Secrets, which is one of the best Facebook groups out there for media buyers people, like he’s got several 1000 in there that pay him 97 bucks a month; Fernando Cruz, who’s the Head Marketer for Legacy, which is one of the best divisions of grow wise until it was just sold for $3 billion; Jordan Menard, who is the top media buyer. I’ll give you an example of another one just with Jordan. It’s not the one that’s in the book. The one in the book is about how to produce new angles. But Jordan shared a strategy with me. This was like about 18 months ago so its effectiveness is a little less than where it was, but it still works. And he showed me in split tests. He had three split tests. He had one for Bob Proctor who’s a client of his, one for the Morrison Brothers who’s also a client of his, and one, Agora property. And he did a split test with Facebook ads, and all he changed was two words – the first two words of the Facebook post. And the two words that he added were “It’s true…” And “it’s true…” boosted the click through rate by about 50-70%.

Tom Poland 31:10

Rich Schefren 31:11
Kind of shocking. But anyway, so Jordan Russell Brunson has his favorite funnel, the funnel that actually has built more click funnels than any other funnel, and one that he spends over a million dollars a month on, that’s cashflow positive. And then Aleric Heck talking about YouTube retargeting, and why it’s so effective and how to do it, and Growth Secrets, Molly Mahoney.
So, it’s seven different strategies that people can have, and we are planning on selling it on Amazon, but for your listeners, they can get a free by just going to j-a-y. All lowercase.

Tom Poland 31:49
Rich Schefren, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. I’m so glad we throw away the seven-minute timer. Folks, hope you enjoyed that. Go get that book for free.
Rich, your score on the gentlemen. Thanks very much.

Rich Schefren 32:04
My pleasure. I do want to answer that last question.

Tom Poland 32:08
Oh, I’m sorry. That’s my bad. Question seven, kind of our trademark question – what’s the one question I should have asked you but didn’t?

Rich Schefren 32:15
Yeah. You wouldn’t know to ask me this question, but since I’m asking myself the question and delivering the answer, let me tell you.
I want to share what I did to watch my coaching. It’s something I’ve taught to numerous people and the people who have done it have done very well and done the same. So, you know, it’s very first time I got a chance to speak where I was going to sell something, and I’m not a really- I’m a great marketer, because I’m a bad salesperson.

Tom Poland 32:43
You’ve to be good at one or the other.

Rich Schefren 32:45
Yeah. I was quite concerned about selling from stage, especially with other sharks speaking, right? Because that’s not me. And so instead, I decided that to avoid the possibility of there not being anyone getting up and buying, better to like, kind of make sure that that’s not even an option, so I’ll make an application only. So, there’s no reason to rush. You could just fill out the application, and you know, etc. And then well, what could I do to get people to want to fill out the application? And I could put a really strong guarantee.
And so, my original guarantee when I started my coaching program, and it was the first group of people that I coached, and those were nice, those guys, you know, it was a year-long program, you will double the amount that you’re currently making and you will be working half as much by the time we’re done. Like 4x your return on your like, on your own. And there were several hundred people in the room. And that guarantee got, you know, especially when I reinforced it, got quite a few people to apply.

Tom Poland 34:00

Rich Schefren 34:01
So, you’re basically guaranteeing that I’m going to be at 4x and a year from now, or all the money I pay you is going to, you know, be returned to me, and I’m doing private coaching at this point. It’s not like a group program. Like, there’s some group components, but I’m talking to everyone individually, too.

Tom Poland 34:18

Rich Schefren 34:19
And so, I had about 40 some on, like 47, 48. I don’t remember how many, but 40 some on apply.

Tom Poland 34:26

Rich Schefren 34:27
But I then spoke to every single person for 15 minutes, because I only accepted the people who I felt I could actually deliver that for, right?
So, put a big guarantee out there if you have the opportunity to talk to a good, you know, some amount of your prospect. Put a strong guarantee out there. Make it by application only, but then, only accept that people into the program you actually could deliver on, right? You know, I never worked harder than that year, because like, I didn’t have a program. I didn’t know. But I knew that these people were winners I felt, and I felt like I could help them, right?

Tom Poland 35:09

Rich Schefren 35:09
But it was that, and then it was my delivering that result for those people, so that I didn’t have to refund anyone’s money, that their results went into the Internet Business Manifesto. So the Internet Business Manifesto, like, reek of proof, and it was the proof of those people who I had built the program on.
And so, I was talking to them individually, like twice a month, I was doing group, like lessons for the group. Those group lessons were based on the individual calls that I had, so they were based on what I felt they needed. That’s what I was teaching. So, my entire program was built out by delivering, so that one group. Then, that was what I ended up selling, automated for the next 10 years, right? Like, that exact program. I had A studies. I had everything from that initial group, and that initial group was gotten by an over-the-top guarantee application where I would only accept the people that I could help around.

Tom Poland 36:17
A careful selection. So, there was actually a heck of a lot of integrity around that.
And last question, bonus question, then we’ll wrap up in another 30 seconds. You think that the marketplace responds a lot better when they sense you have skin in the game. You’re offering all money back after you work for people for 12 months. People are going, “Wow, Rich must really believe in this.”

Rich Schefren 36:36
I think there’s a part of that. I also think that, you know, on the one hand, people think that that’s a tremendous investment, and it certainly is, right? Like, I’m willing to risk a lot. But also, the likelihood of someone being this honest with you after you’ve been personally talking to them as a coach, where people have opened up to you like, you know, they’re on your side. They want the outcome. But, you know, if you’re a good coach, odds are that they’ve also grown to like trust and bond with you, right? And so, I think, partly that.
And then the other thing I would say, which like, just as an added bonus tip, there is no excuse, like zero, for a coach not to be a great marketer. Because the questions that marketers, like we’d love to know the real answers to, are the questions that coaches get answered, like at the beginning of a conversation, right?

Tom Poland 37:43

Rich Schefren 37:43
So, a lot of times, in all the free reports I wrote, one of the most common feedback I got was, “It felt like you were just standing right over my shoulder, like you were describing quite me.”

Tom Poland 37:53
Music. Music to my ears. Yeah.

Rich Schefren 37:57
You know, if you coach a lot of people, you don’t have to hear the stories that many times to see the commonalities that are in all of them, but people generally won’t open up to anybody like that. They are opening up to you because you’re here to help them, and that is the exact information that is like the gold when it comes to marketing.

Tom Poland 38:18
Isn’t it? Yeah.
Rich, thanks so much for your time.

Rich Schefren 38:20
My pleasure.

Tom Poland 38:21
Thanks for checking out our Marketing The Invisible podcast. If you like what we’re doing here please head over to iTunes to subscribe, rate us, and leave us a review. It’s very much appreciated. And if you want to generate five fresh leads in just five hours then check out

What do you want to hear from the Marketing the Invisible Podcast? Tell us here!

Please note: I reserve the right to delete comments that are offensive or off-topic.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *